>> THE WAY I ENTERED INTO ART MAKING WAS THROUGH PHOTOGRAPHY.

I FEEL LIKE THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN A MEDIUM THAT I'M LIKE REALLY COMPELLED TOWARDS AND ALSO DEEPLY FRUSTRATED BY, YOU KNOW, BOTH OF THOSE THINGS.

SO I LOVE THIS POWER TO, LIKE, WIELD TRUTH, YOU KNOW, OR KIND OF BE A DOCUMENT THAT HAS A CERTAIN KIND OF ICALITY TO IT.

BUT I ALSO RESIST THAT AND WANT TO MAKE STORIES OR NARRATIVES HAVE A PHYSICAL EXPRESSION ON THE PHOTO PAPER INTO THAT MEDIUM IN SOME WAY THAT CAN REFLECT MY, LIKE, FEMINIST OR EMBODIED OR QUEER OR SOMETHING OUTSIDE OF THE TWO- DIMENSIONAL DECISIVE MOMENT OF SOMETHING BRESSON OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

THERE'S SOMETHING SIMILAR TO DANI IN ALL OF THE THINGS OF LIFE GET CYCLED INTO OR PULLED INTO THE MAKING OF THE WORK AND INFLUENCE IT IN VERY DIRECT WAYS.

IT IS A WAY OF, LIKE, PROCESSING OR TRANSFORMING THAT EXPERIENCE INTO SOMETHING ELSE THAT I THINK ULTIMATELY YOU WANT TO SHARE WITH OTHERS.

>> AND WE ALWAYS TAKE ON TOPICS OF THE CURRENT, YOU KNOW.

AT ONE POINT I WAS GRAPPLING WITH MY JEWISH IDENTITY.

CURRENTLY I'M RECKONING WITH MY PLACE IN THIS FAMILY AND WHERE I HAVE PATTERNS OF FLIGHT.

I DON'T REALLY DO FLIGHT.

IGHT.

IT'S FLIGHT.

>> AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO STAY AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, I'M IN LOVE WITH THESE KIDS, BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DON'T WANT TO BE AROUND SOMEONE AND HOW THEY NEED YOU TO BE THERE?

SO I'M MAKING DRAWINGS OF THE GIRLS.

I OFTEN USE PHOTOGRAPHS.

I'M NOT TRAINED IN DRAWING.

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO AN ANATOMICALLY CORRECT FIGURE OR FACE.

AND I DON'T REALLY CARE, BUT SOMETIMES I WANT SKY'S FACE, ROSE'S FACE, SHEILAH'S FACE, MY FATHER'S FACE.

SO I TAKE A PHOTO AND PUT IT IN AS A COLLAGE.

>> YOU STARTED WORKING COLLABORATIVELY IN 2015 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

THAT'S KIND OF AN INTERESTING WAY INTO THE COLLABORATION, BECAUSE - - >> IT STARTED ON PAPER AND STARTED WITH LANGUAGE.

>> YEAH.

I WAS ASKING DANI TO PRINT ME A PHRASE THAT WAS LIKE STRANGELY ORDINARY, THIS DEVOTION.

AND I JUST WANTED A WHOLE BUNCH OF THEM PRINTED, LIKE A WHOLE BUNCH, THE KIND OF REPETITION OF THAT PHRASE BUT ALSO THE OFFERING OF THAT SURFACE AS LIKE A PLACE TO MAKE A NOTE OR PUT A DRAWING OR MARK TIME OR, YEAH, CREATE A DOCUMENT, I GUESS.

BUT DANI LIKE --WHILE YOU WERE HELPING ME, LIKE, HAD THIS IDEA OF WHAT THAT PHRASE MEANT.

>> TO YOU AND TO ME.

I STARTED QUESTIONING STRANGELY ORDINARY DEVOTION.

NOW, WHAT I THOUGHT IT MEANT IS THAT HER DEVOTION TO ROSE, I THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT HER DEVOTION AND TO ME TO BE DEVOTED TO A CHILD WAS NOT ORDINARY.

I FOUND IT EXTRAORDINARY.

SO THAT WAS, LIKE, I STARTED ASKING MYSELF WHAT AM I DEVOTED TO?

DOESN'T REALLY MATTER.

WE STARTED WORKING WITH THAT.

THAT BECAME THE TITLE OF OUR FIRST FILM IN OUR TRILOGY.

>> STRANGELY ORDINARY, THIS DEVOTION, COME COYOTE, FUTURE FROM INSIDE.

AND THE WHOLE UMBRELLA OF THE TRILOGY IS FERAL DOMESTIC.

>> YEAH.

USING THE DOMESTIC SPACE AS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE KIND OF TURNED WILD OR LIKE -- >> -- AS MUCH IS POSSIBLE BECAUSE WE HAVE TO GO GET OUR CAR FIXED OR WHAT NOT.

>> YEAH.

>> LIKE WHAT CAN WE INTRODUCE TO THE FAMILY THAT KEEPS US FROM GETTING TOO DOMESTICATED.

>> I FEEL LIKE THE DOMESTIC GETS OVER LOOKED.

IT'S SORT OF A FORECLOSED SPACE IN SOME WAYS.

WE WERE A LITTLE BIT TRAPPED IN IT IN THE BEGINNING, LIKE, BECAUSE ROSE WAS SO YOUNG.

LIKE, WE WOULD HAVE TO HAVE A BABYSITTER.

THERE'S A WHOLE BUNCH OF SCENES THAT ARE BECAUSE THIS IS THE SPACE THAT WE'RE IN.

[ INDISCERNIBLE ] >> WE HAVE TO USE THE KITCHEN.

WE'RE GOING TO SHOOT IN THE BACK YARD BECAUSE WE CAN'T GO OUT.

>> YEAH.

JUST LIKE CERTAIN REALITIES.

>> THINGS FALL INTO PLACE LIKE THAT.

I MEAN, EVERYTHING MAKES EACH OTHER.

IT KIND OF TRACKED TIME WITH ROSE BEING --I MET HER WHEN SHE WAS 5.

SHE'S 15 NOW.

OH YEAH, AND BECAUSE SHE'S 15 NOW, WE'RE TRYING TO DEAL WITH TEENAGE GIRL IN THIS SOCIETY, IN OUR SOCIAL MEDIA MESS.

THAT'S WHAT STOVE PIPE TO THE SUN ADDRESSES.

>> I DO BELIEVE WE ARE SORT OF LIKE A PATRIARCHY OR WHATEVER.

WE'RE INUNDATED WITH A CERTAIN MESSAGE OR A CERTAIN WAY OF TELLING IT.

MOST OF THE MOVIES WE WOULD WATCH AT THE THEATER HAVE A CLEAR NARRATIVE ARC, RISING ACTION, CLIMAX.

WE GET IT.

IT'S FUN.

WE LOVE TO ESCAPE INTO THESE OTHER WORLDS PROVIDED.

BUT PART OF WHAT YOU CAN OFFER IN ART MAKING IS OTHER WAYS.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO MAKE A FRAGMENTED NARRATIVE?

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO HAVE TO CONSTRUCT SENSE YOURSELF AS A VIEWER OR NOT BE TOTALLY SURE?

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

THESE ARE ALL REALLY PRODUCTIVE QUESTIONS.

IT'S OFFERING STORY, WHICH IS LIKE WHAT YOU CRAVE AND WHAT WE BOTH ARE LIKE INVESTED IN BUT IN A WAY THAT IS LIKE NOT SO LEGIBLE, YOU KNOW.

>> AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO WORK.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO PUT IT ON A SILVER PLATTER.

I OFTEN WOULD MAKE A VOICEOVER, FOR INSTANCE, BECAUSE I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND AND THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO THINK.

SO THAT ONE GETS SCRATCHED.

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

>> I THINK PART OF WHAT MAKES WORKING TOGETHER SO INTERESTING IS THAT, LIKE, I HAVE ONE IDEA ABOUT SOMETHING AND, LIKE, SHE HAS SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW.

SO, AGAIN, IT'S THAT SORT OF -- THERE'S LIKE A PRODUCTIVE DISSONANCE OF DEALING WITH SOMETHING THAT IS NOT YOURSELF, YOU KNOW?

AND THERE'S JUST THAT ENERGY COMING IN, CAN LIKE SHIFT THINGS IN A WAY.

THAT'S WHAT I LOVE ABOUT DANI'S WAY OF MAKING WORK AND HER WAY IN THE WORLD, WHICH IS SHE'S VERY, LIKE, UNAFRAID.

WE FIGHT ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE DANI HAS, LIKE, A DIRECTNESS AND I HAVE KIND OF AN OBSCURITY OR I'M INTERESTED IN HOW THINGS CAN ACCUMULATE AND REVEAL SOMETHING.

EVEN IN WRITING THE DREAMS, I'M LIKE REWRITING THEM ONE ON TOP OF THE OTHER, ONE ON TOP OF THE OTHER.

DANI'S LIKE, WHY DON'T YOU JUST WRITE THEM OUT?

THESE ARE GOOD QUESTIONS, BUT IT'S ALSO LIKE THAT'S PART OF THE WAY IN WHICH I MAKE SENSE OF THE WORLD.

IT'S OKAY WITH ME IF IT TAKES A WHILE OR IF YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT AS A FORMAL EXPERIENCE AND THEN, LIKE, IT SEEPS INTO YOU LIKE A WORD OR A SHAPE OR SOMETHING ELSE.

>> THERE WAS A LOT OF DOUBT FOR MANY YEARS ABOUT BEING AN ARTIST.

LIKE, I'M IN HERE HAVING THIS TIME OF MY LIFE, AND THERE'S PEOPLE THAT COULDN'T HAVE THIS.

WHAT BUSINESS AM I?

I SHOULD BE WORKING ON BEHALF OF OTHERS, YOU KNOW, NOT CONTRIBUTING.

AND THEN I CAME TO UNDERSTAND THROUGH OTHER PEOPLE'S ART THAT ART FEEDS ME.

I THOUGHT I'M NOT AS SELF-INDULGENT AS I'M AFRAID I'M BEING.

I'M TRYING TO MAKE WORK THAT IS TRUE TO MYSELF AND SOMETHING LARGER THAN MYSELF AND THAT WHEN THE WORK IS PERSONAL AND CONCERNED WITH FORM, TO MAKE SURE IT'S LARGER THAN MYSELF, BECAUSE IT IS LARGER.

LIKE, WE ARE OF ONE ANOTHER.

I'M NOT GOING TO MAKE MY ART AND SAY, OH, UNIVERSAL.

YEAH, I'M NOT GOING TO DO THAT.

BUT WHAT I'M GOING TO DO IS MAKE IT FORMALLY COMPLEX IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE IT'S NOT ABOUT NAVEL GAZING.

THAT IS FORMAL.

I'M CONCERNED WITH WHAT IS FORM, WHAT IS CONTENT AND HOW CAN WE READ THEM.

I HAVE A LOT OF CONTENT THAT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE FORMALLY.

COLLABORATION, ACTUALLY, IS A WAY TO EXPAND OUT FROM MY UNDERSTANDINGS.